Register Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 4      Prev   1   2   3   4   Next
tendumom

Avatar / Picture

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,021
Reply with quote  #26 
She said 54 inches and 68 lbs, not 5'4".  One would think she would have trouble walking let alone dancing at 5'4" and 68 lbs. Easy mistake to make, especially if your eyes are like mine these days! LOL

Quote:
Miko Fogarty and Juliet Doherty seem to be doing this. 


Miko Fogarty is employed by the Birmingham Royal Ballet in the UK. She still does a lot of other galas and the like, I'm sure for pay. One of dd's former ballet teachers was a very well known ballerina (still in but retired). She once talked about striking while the iron is hot, making the money while you can because there is no guarantee that the opportunity will be there in the future. I realize that statement sounds like there's much money to be made and there is not... even more reason to do what you can to make money doing what you love when you have that sort of recognition. 

Before there was IG, there were the youtube ballet stars. One of the first was Alys Shee who seemed to do the same things as Miko does. She did well in competitions, posted photos of her amazing turns at age 14, etc. Eventually went to ABT's Studio Company and is now with the Birmingham Royal Ballet as well. When dd was much younger, this was her "Miko." So, those that do continue likely
end up somewhere eventually. 
0
Twinkletoesx2

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,950
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatball77


Please tell me that's a typo and your daughter doesn't think she's fat because she's 5'4" and 68 pounds.  That sounds really unhealthy.


I was thinking the same Meatball. That is extremely underweight for a girl that is 5'4
0
Ktyyyyyyy

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,478
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatball77


Please tell me that's a typo and your daughter doesn't think she's fat because she's 5'4" and 68 pounds.  That sounds really unhealthy.


Yes, I hope that's a typo too! My dd is shorter than your dd and weighs almost 30 lbs more, and she's pretty thin.
0
tendumom

Avatar / Picture

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,021
Reply with quote  #29 
[QUOTE She's 54" and 68 lbs.]

54"= 54 inches, not 5 feet 4 inches. [smile]
0
pirouettemom

Bronze Member
Registered:
Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #30 

Miko Fogarty had a one-year contract with Royal Birmingham Ballet that ended last year.  

I admit I know nothing about dancer's contracts and whether they get fired for being too 'fat'.  I only know I have seen some amazing, world-famous ballet companies perform and some quite famous ballerinas and they don't all conform to a very narrow and super specific body type.  I have also seen Pacific Northwest Ballet and the dancers seemed to look healthy and not all were the super slim/elongated body type.  

It is interesting that Balanchine dancers are supposedly more 'strong looking', because many attribute the current ballet ideal (small head, long neck, long and slim limbs) to him.  Ballet dancers in the past looked very different than now - they were mostly shorter, softer and not as thin.  These were the dancers who originally danced all the variations that we now know so well thanks to YAGP (lol) - like Esmeralda, Princess Aurora, Fairy Doll etc. 

 

1
Phx115

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 657
Reply with quote  #31 
Meatball77 - Oh gosh no! It says 54", which is 4'6" - not 5'4".

Somehow I thought using inches would be less confusing.
0
ballerinamom13

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,704
Reply with quote  #32 
DD is good friends with quite a few of the PNB dancers and they are among the skinniest of her friends.  Guess we are seeing differently.
0
ballerinamom13

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,704
Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirouettemom

Miko Fogarty had a one-year contract with Royal Birmingham Ballet that ended last year.  

I admit I know nothing about dancer's contracts and whether they get fired for being too 'fat'.  I only know I have seen some amazing, world-famous ballet companies perform and some quite famous ballerinas and they don't all conform to a very narrow and super specific body type.  I have also seen Pacific Northwest Ballet and the dancers seemed to look healthy and not all were the super slim/elongated body type.  

It is interesting that Balanchine dancers are supposedly more 'strong looking', because many attribute the current ballet ideal (small head, long neck, long and slim limbs) to him.  Ballet dancers in the past looked very different than now - they were mostly shorter, softer and not as thin.  These were the dancers who originally danced all the variations that we now know so well thanks to YAGP (lol) - like Esmeralda, Princess Aurora, Fairy Doll etc. 

 



Many NYCB women legs are bigger than some because of the style - they are strong, not fat.  Again - how old is your daughter?  Were you a professional ballerina?  Just wondering.
0
tendumom

Avatar / Picture

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,021
Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
It is interesting that Balanchine dancers are supposedly more 'strong looking', because many attribute the current ballet ideal (small head, long neck, long and slim limbs) to him.


I often found it interesting how the students are closer to that image at SAB (with many exceptions) but some of the better known principals and soloists do not fit that image as well. Dd has commented herself that her body has more in common with the appearance of some of the principals than with the students. But, some of those students will eventually become the principals.  The difference is, in part, explained by the age difference. Bodies change and mature. 

I did not realize Miko did not stay with Birmingham for the next year. I obviously don't pay too much attention to these things. [smile]  I believe a one year contract is pretty standard. It is standard here in the US. Of course, there may be many reasons why her contract was not renewed or why she did not sign again if offered a second contract. I cannot help but wonder about inexperience in corps roles. It's something I've wondered about other "young stars" of ballet who spend a great deal of time learning and performing variations, always the soloist or principal and never swan number 7. 
0
Twinkletoesx2

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,950
Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tendumom


54"= 54 inches, not 5 feet 4 inches. [smile]


That makes much more sense! I thought it said 5'4, not 54.
0
meatball77

Avatar / Picture

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,561
Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tendumom


I often found it interesting how the students are closer to that image at SAB (with many exceptions) but some of the better known principals and soloists do not fit that image as well. Dd has commented herself that her body has more in common with the appearance of some of the principals than with the students. But, some of those students will eventually become the principals.  The difference is, in part, explained by the age difference. Bodies change and mature. 

I did not realize Miko did not stay with Birmingham for the next year. I obviously don't pay too much attention to these things. [smile]  I believe a one year contract is pretty standard. It is standard here in the US. Of course, there may be many reasons why her contract was not renewed or why she did not sign again if offered a second contract. I cannot help but wonder about inexperience in corps roles. It's something I've wondered about other "young stars" of ballet who spend a great deal of time learning and performing variations, always the soloist or principal and never swan number 7. 


Not only that but they've developed egos that probably don't mesh well with being a nameless corps dancer who has to wait to get even a tiny two phrase solo.  And always pushing for the absurdly high arabesque is great but that doesn't mean those dancers are practiced in not sticking out in the corps.

I also agree with you on the bodies of principals vs the corps.  The NYCB principals are not a bunch of waif's.
0
ballerinamom13

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,704
Reply with quote  #37 
Agree, tendumom.  Bodies change and mature, BUT also those people have proved themselves. They are much, much more secure in their positions and they can relax a little.  There is so much competition, even for trainee spots, that keeps pushing (especially) women to stay thin. AD's know that bodies change and mature, so if someone is already "mature" at 17, what's going to happen later?  No one really knows, but I am willing to bet, they don't want to find out.

I also know that the opinions of someone who has actually been through 20 years of raising a professional ballerina and someone who observes professional ballet are going to be radically different, because an observer has zero personal knowledge (unless that person was a dancer or a close family member was). I completely agree that every single person on this board is entitled to their opinion, but just because someone has observed something doesn't make it true, no matter how much one would like it to be.

In the real ballet world and at YAGP, body type is important, like it or not, so if YAGP has a little different standard, one should not be surprised.  And to go back to my first point, no one needs to spend a huge amount of money to go to YAGP to "make it".  DD went twice - once in her second year of serious ballet and it was a great experience, but she definitely wasn't prepared for the level of competition and the second time, she did very well, but still didn't make it to NY (by a heart breaking tiny margin).  That was 7 years ago.  In the long run, that only made her work harder and it was worth every penny. I think the private time working on her variations alone was worth the money.   As the saying goes, "Buyer Beware" - know what you are getting into before you commit to spend the money and time and go into it for the right reasons, especially to see improvement and to be able to see where your child stands at that point in time.
0
joriebelle

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,304
Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballerinamom13
Agree, tendumom.  Bodies change and mature, BUT also those people have proved themselves. They are much, much more secure in their positions and they can relax a little.  There is so much competition, even for trainee spots, that keeps pushing (especially) women to stay thin. AD's know that bodies change and mature, so if someone is already "mature" at 17, what's going to happen later?  No one really knows, but I am willing to bet, they don't want to find out.

I also know that the opinions of someone who has actually been through 20 years of raising a professional ballerina and someone who observes professional ballet are going to be radically different, because an observer has zero personal knowledge (unless that person was a dancer or a close family member was). I completely agree that every single person on this board is entitled to their opinion, but just because someone has observed something doesn't make it true, no matter how much one would like it to be.

In the real ballet world and at YAGP, body type is important, like it or not, so if YAGP has a little different standard, one should not be surprised.  And to go back to my first point, no one needs to spend a huge amount of money to go to YAGP to "make it".  DD went twice - once in her second year of serious ballet and it was a great experience, but she definitely wasn't prepared for the level of competition and the second time, she did very well, but still didn't make it to NY (by a heart breaking tiny margin).  That was 7 years ago.  In the long run, that only made her work harder and it was worth every penny. I think the private time working on her variations alone was worth the money.   As the saying goes, "Buyer Beware" - know what you are getting into before you commit to spend the money and time and go into it for the right reasons, especially to see improvement and to be able to see where your child stands at that point in time.


Definitely some wise words here.  I just wanted to add one thing; someone made a comment about YAGP Finals dancers being skeletally skinny.  While it's true that being thin and having long limbs may be somewhat important at YAGP, I would not agree with the comment that the dancers look like skeletons.  These dancers work very hard and have extensive muscles which they need to perform the variations.
0
Phx115

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 657
Reply with quote  #39 
Joribelle - I own that comment about skeleton-like skinny. I'm not backing down on that. I won't post pics (very inappropriate), but when a dancer's knee caps are bigger than their thigh muscles, that's skeletal. When you can see just under the skin where the humerus (arm) attaches to the scapula (shoulder), that's skeletal. I don't believe that kind of skinny is all genetic. I do believe these skeletal dancers will suffer injuries and other medical issues down the road. These are critical growth years, and the damage they are doing won't be evident until they are a bit older.

At regionals, I've personally seen skeletal dancers place with just so-so technique.

I did notice many of the contemporary dancers appeared to be thin-to-healthy weight versus skeletal.

In that same post, I said the NYC Finals dancing (Precompetitive females was all I got to watch) was amazing! I never said that it wasn't. Of course, they work hard and, frankly, the effort that must go into keeping such a low weight takes a tremendous amount of sacrifice.

Bottom line - I'm not naive to the wants of the ballet world. It is what it is. I just don't particularly find skeletal to be appealing.
0
ggsmith

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 508
Reply with quote  #40 
I also used the term skeletal.  A few, though certainly not all, of the girls who placed in the top twelve/twenty-four at our regional were so thin that I could, from the audience, clearly see ribs, vertebrae, sunken collarbones, and knees that seemed swollen in comparison to their thighs.  When I saw a few in the lobby after awards they seemed even thinner up close, with pronounced cheekbones, jawbones, and eye sockets.  These are my personal observations.  

I don't find that to be asthetically appealing.  The percentage of people with this build who achieved a top placement at the one regional I'm referring to has to be hundreds or thousands of times higher than the percentage of people who share that body type in the general population.  Very few people have that type of body type naturally without an underlying disorder, illness, or very limited caloric intake.    

That in no way negates whatever hard work these young people have put into their dance training.  I would wager there are very few competitors at YAGP who have not put in a lot of time, energy, and family fortunes into their training and preparing their pieces prior to the competition.  Appearance is important at YAGP, and low body fat is part of the ideal there.  My daughter looked chubby next to the girls who placed at our regional.  Her bmi is under 20.  Many people participate in YAGP and find it worthwhile.  My daughter would like to enter again at some point in the future. 
0
classydance

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,061
Reply with quote  #41 
Watched YAGP. IMO Jr level is the most competitive. The technique is insane.  I think that once you get to the top 5-10, any of the dancers could place. They are all just that good.

YAGP is run by a Bolshoi trained dancer. The Russians favor an extremely thin dancer.  This is widely known.  Dancers we would consider "too skinny" are just right in that context.  The Russians expect that and don't really see it as dysfunctional in the way that we do. At the Bolshoi the weight requirements for all dancers was 100 lb. It might still be that way.  Read about people who have studied in Russian, follow blogs.  Different body aesthetic is expected.  You are either born with it or achieve it or you don't dance ballet there.

That aesthetic is brought into YAGP, especially for final round and top 12.  The only exception is if you have a really insane media following and will bring an audience to YAGP due to your social media presence.

No being skinny and ED are not the same thing.  But a progressed ED will reflect in a body weight that is extremely thin.

We know a number of the Jr dancers.  One has a documented ED, widely known at studio.

Others are restricting quite a bit. 

Others are "naturally" thin. 

I know of one former YAGP kids now at a European school who clearly has ED. Her pictures document it (and it's not just her size. There are other physical signs of ED.)

That said, ED is rampant in the ballet community.  It just is. But often the skinniest kids are not actually the ones with ED.

And no, in US you can have a more "normal" body type and dance ballet.  US companies are more tolerant but that only goes so far.



CAN I ASK A QUESTION?  How many contracts were given for girls?
0
judie

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,181
Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave9988


"Potential"  (insert eye roll).

My favorite NFL team is great at drafting players with "potential."  I just wish for once they'd go after the guys who can actually play!


Ha! You must be a Browns fan! LOL
0
judie

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,181
Reply with quote  #43 
While we are on the topic of "restricting" does anyone else have a SO/DT who encourages the girls (ages 10-15) to drink a lot of protein shakes and snack on protein bars?




0
joriebelle

Avatar / Picture

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,304
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by judie
While we are on the topic of "restricting" does anyone else have a SO/DT who encourages the girls (ages 10-15) to drink a lot of protein shakes and snack on protein bars?






Not at our studio; he doesn't want them eating anything processed so basically just encourages fresh fruits and vegetables, chicken breast, boiled potatoes, nuts, hard boiled eggs, etc.  Limited bread and pasta.
0
tendumom

Avatar / Picture

High Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,021
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
While we are on the topic of "restricting" does anyone else have a SO/DT who encourages the girls (ages 10-15) to drink a lot of protein shakes and snack on protein bars?


Is this person selling them?

Dd did once have a guest teacher from a well known company who taught a class and gave a talk on nutrition. She did recommend that they increase the protein in their diet to match their activity level. Talked a lot about them training as elite athletes and taking care of their bodies. She did specifically talk about protein shakes, how to evaluate them, etc. She carried around a water bottle with a mixer ball, adding a scoop of some protein powder to the water. Told them she does this at least once each day when she is dancing. 

That talk encouraged dd to give it a try. It was short-lived. She was probably in 8th or 9th grade when this happened. She did not really revisit the concept until she was dancing full time and had some weight loss. She made her own shakes, adding in some protein powder (and it's not easy to find ones without milk products), and drank them daily until she regained the weight. Now she really only uses them if she feels she needs to. 
0
dave9988

Avatar / Picture

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 520
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by judie
Ha! You must be a Browns fan! LOL


LOL, close!
The Bills!!!
0
prancer

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 847
Reply with quote  #47 
So I am definitely out of the loop in terms of what ballet programs desire, but I am very curious now.  My dd has a BMI of 18 - but I still wouldn't describe her as skeletal.  She looks thin but strong.  How thin do they tend to want dancers to be?
0
Phx115

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 657
Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by prancer
So I am definitely out of the loop in terms of what ballet programs desire, but I am very curious now.  My dd has a BMI of 18 - but I still wouldn't describe her as skeletal.  She looks thin but strong.  How thin do they tend to want dancers to be?


Here are some links. The weight charts seem to be all from schools from foreign countries. I can't find much about US programs. I was just looking at pictures from a ballet competition in Orlando this past March. One of the competitors in the Primary division looked skeletal. I hesitate to post her pic b/c she might be somebody's daughter/relative on here. Although, I think she is from another country.

BMI is tough, anyway, because everyone's body type is different.

Anyway, here are some links:

http://melmoth.blog/post/142675479933/vaganova-ballet-academy-heightweight-requirement


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjl8PmL3cLTAhXs34MKHcw-CpEQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaglundsheel.typepad.com%2Fhaglunds_heel%2F2014%2F08%2Fthe-fat-truth-about-the-skinny-in-ballet.html&psig=AFQjCNGlDmrya6YcwImRQvO_R_RKdRm6GQ&ust=1493316474613111


https://alessandraortiz.wordpress.com/2015/07/21/changing-the-perception-of-the-ballet-body/

This last one is, um, interesting. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just posting the link.

http://haglundsheel.typepad.com/haglunds_heel/2014/08/the-fat-truth-about-the-skinny-in-ballet.html
0
ggsmith

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 508
Reply with quote  #49 
The vagonova ideal for my daughter's height would be a BMI of 16.  Not with her genetics.
0
prancer

High Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 847
Reply with quote  #50 
Thanks Phx115.  Wow.  I followed the links - thanks for taking the time to post them.  If those are the body types being rewarded, then skeletal is probably the right term.  My very thin but healthy looking daughter would have to lose nearly 10 pounds to get to the Vaganova requirements.  If she were to aspire to that change the majority of weight change would be in lost muscle, which presumably would impair her dancing.  I would also expect that she would lose her period if she got that low providing biological evidence of unhealthfully low weight (for her).  


0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation: